Externalising the problem
The person is not the problem!
“The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem”. These words of Michael White have become well-known within the field of narrative therapy. In this chapter we will explore ways of externalising problems and the possibilities this brings.
An introduction to externalising the problem from Tileah
Story of practice: Externalising conversations
Tileah Drahm-Butler
Shame Mat
Aunty Dolly Hankin and Aunty Kerry Major
Externalising can be used with groups in creative ways. Aunty Dolly Hankin and Aunty Kerry Major in Mount Isa, for example, have created the Shame Mat!
Thwarting shame: Feminist engagement in narrative groupwork
Kylie Dowse
‘You can call me Sugar’
This is a story of ‘Sugar’ by Aunty Barbara Wingard. It’s a story about trying to find new ways of working, of trying different things and taking new steps.
Please find the article here: Introducing ‘Sugar’
(from the book Telling our stories in ways that make us stronger by Barbara Wingard and Jane Lester)
Talking about Grief
Aunty Barbara has also created a character of ‘Grief’ to assist people to grieve and honour.
Please find the article: Grief: Remember, reflect, reveal
(from the book Telling our stories in ways that make us stronger by Barbara Wingard and Jane Lester)
Lateral Violence
This is one of the most influential externalising conversations ‘scripts’. It was developed by Aunty Barbara to assist people to talk about Lateral Violence.
A conversation with Lateral Violence
Also included are documents about the special skills that Elders and young people from Woorabinda community are using to respond to Lateral Violence.
(from the book Aboriginal narrative practice: Honouring storylines of pride, strength & creativity by Barbara Wingard, Carolynanha Johnson & Tileah Drahm-Butler)
Aunty Barbara encourages you to give it a try!
Aunty Barbara Wingard, Carolyn Markey and Chris Dolman
This video is from a workshop with Aunty Barbara, Carolyn and Chris.
Cynthy Reese
July 5, 2021Externalizing to the point you can physically go through a process of PHYSICALLY ‘leaving it’ on the mat sounds to have given such a wonderful opportunity to be in their own body without the weight and behaviours of shame. It sounded like shame had a physical hold on their tongues, heads and vision and the Shame Mat gave them a chance to wipe that clean off their body and their hearts so they could see themselves and the way forward more clearly. The Shame Mat and prompts in the poem is brilliant work.
Shayla Dube
July 3, 2021Because we live in a world where internality is more common that externality, I found the practical examples so helpful in giving me ideas on how to use creativity with people especially on a community level. The shame mat really touched me and it was a visual way of naming and describing shame, a really great way of externalizing. If strength based and person centered approach has aliases ” externalizing” would be that name. Aunty Barber’s Grief chapter was also insightful in highlighting how we can support people through grief trough story telling. externalization of grief and and talking with grief. Telling the stories of grief that make us stronger.
Kate Coomber
June 26, 2021I’ve read Barbara Wingard’s piece on Being Sugar previously so it was really interesting to see the different approach taken with Grief. Her acknowledgement of it’s sadness and delicacy and long ties to history was moving. Again externalising the problem sets it in a wider contest – the problem is the problem.
The Shame Mat is absolutely memorable for me, being able to leave that feeling at the door, to acknowledge but leave behind and to hear that poem would be a fantastic experience for anyone – workers or participants in the room. And so important to have both mixing to remind workers/therapists that participants are the experts in their lives so it is equal standing for all.
Zach
June 24, 2021This section was incredibly interesting. The fact that the article on lateral violence was written in a Narrative/story telling way made it a perfect addition to this course. Hearing about ways to stop lateral violence from a majority culture perspective would be one thing, but hearing other ways to stop lateral violence from the voices of Aboriginal cultures made it even more powerful. I am looking forward to seeking more research and especially stories on this topic in the future.
Shamini Abeykoon
June 24, 2021While this chapter prioritized the concept of externalization, how doing one as a therapist was still a novel to me. The examples that were presented by Michael White was extremely pensive and makes me question how I would eventually be capable of utilizing similar approaches, narrations and examples when working with clients that have been internalizing problem and pieced these said problems with their identity, an amalgamation created as a personality. How would working with clients that have lived an extended portion of their lives with these problems could use support to externalize their problems and look at them from different perspectives.
Molly
June 22, 2021Like many of the other comments, I found several of the topics discussed in this module educational and crucial for therapists and clinicians to be familiar with. Michael White’s lecture about externalizing, particularly about the child with ADHD, was very informative and personal to myself as I have ADHD inattentive type. He highlighted the importance of knowing the exact type of ADHD as there are different approaches to the different types. Even as an adult, I find taking the time to draw out my ADHD or associate it with a color encourages me to accept this disorder that is a part of me but does not represent my whole identity. Other parts of this module that I find moving include the shame mat and the chapter about lateral violence. These are both new concepts to me. The LV chapter emphasizes all of the racism and injustices that marginalized groups and aboriginal people face, and how destructive LV is and even passed through generations. I also found the externalizing grief chapter quite unique as I have never thought about externalizing my grief and allowing myself the opportunity to step out of my grief and talk with it. Remember, “the person is not the problem, the problem is the problem” could not be anymore important as therapists and clinicians when working with clients. Overall, this module highlighted the benefits of externalizing in several different areas.
Bailey Maly
June 22, 2021I love the creative use of turning problems into characters! My initial thought is that it’s a great way to explain concepts to children, but it seems to work so well with adults too! It’s definitely a tactic that takes a strong personality that can stay with all of those characters.
Pragya Lamichhane
June 21, 2021As a student counselor and a woman of color, I find the process of externalizing problems fascinating and something that I will be applying to my practice and self as well. The motto “The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem.” especially resonates with me due to the fact that for years, women in my home country have been subjected to bias, stereotyping, discrimination and shame, through labels imposed by the larger society, despite having no agency to challenge the problems.
The idea of the Shame Mat also deeply touched me, externalizing the idea that we can leave behind and release ourselves from shame and guilt to express ourselves freely, and embrace our own identity is extremely important and transforming the idea into something real and practicable is empowering
KJ
June 21, 2021I love the idea of the “shame rug.” You can use this with many populations and what comes to mind for me is the Somali population that is here in MN. Thank you for this information!
Nate
June 20, 2021What I find so compelling from this series of resources is an emphasis on externalizing. From how I am interpreting this concept, it appears that externalizing a concern can be a powerful way to, in a sense, objectify it, such that the concern can be approached and addressed more easily with a greater sense of control, providing the individual with greater autonomy.
carlopez2996@gmail.com
June 20, 2021As a student clinician I am grateful to have this opportunity of learning from this course and the strategy of externalizing the problem. The statement “the problem is the problem” is so powerful and the essence of the need to support clients in externalizing the problem. By externalizing the problem, we witness our client/community free themselves of shame, negative self-talk, and begin to see the problem more objectively. I look forward to utilizing this work in my future practicum.
Kathy
June 19, 2021I really appreciated hearing about externalizing the problem and the use of the shame mat. Shame blocks our ability to see what is really going on with us. It also blocks us from taking responsibility for our actions and instead can cause us to blame. Using the shame mat to set shame aside with the attitude of externalizing it as separate from oneself is so powerful.
scott@thefighterwithin.com
June 19, 2021Externalizing the problem by naming and describing it by shape and color is fascinating to me. This approach not only releases the person from the shame and guilt associated with it, but it also makes the problem seem less intense and more workable. I love this approach because it makes the problem the problem and does not make the person the problem. This entire approach of externalizing seems to empower the person so that they can make the change that they want, and in the manner that they want to.
mccja007@icloud.com
June 17, 2021I felt a big resonance with Auntie Kerry’s gift in the story of Shame Mat re Time and (Systems Ways & Our Ways – for me when Auntie Kerry yarns about “Our Way is about the cup of tea and that comfort …”, it gifts me ways of understanding, making bigger meanings and useful methodological practices in Culturally Good Ways.
A second thing I found useful in Auntie Kerry and Auntie Dolly’s story was the insight it gave into a praxis of identifying aims of intervention and ‘externalising the problem’ re engagement of people towards those aims, both in Culturally good and creative ways.
Re this module as a whole, one of the things it bought up for reflection for me was the therapists stories and aims driving the ‘teasing out’ from the Chora of that journey on that day, those particular stories and strengthening them in those particular ways along with how we make this way of understanding and making truth (and voice) transparent and readily understandable for the person or people we are working together with. In relation to my current praxis and going back to the training in the previous module about Single Story one of my ‘take-aways’ is: multiple storying/s allow or perhaps give rise to an expanded lived and (somatically) felt reality of self that can be experienced as big enough and strong enough to hold the hurts of the people we work together with lived realities so that they might hold their self with compassion and gratitude and have the space to allow those hurts to be seen, felt and voiced to themselves by themselves.
tracey.cairns35@bigpond.com
June 16, 2021Thank you for all the wonderful ideas in these examples, and especially to Aunty Barb for sharing her own story. It has inspired me to try and develop some stories in my work. I usually provide information but think a story or role play could be a lot more effective.
Nerida Grant
June 4, 2021These videos and transcripts were so interesting and thought provoking. The work by Aunty Barbara Wingard on lateral violence is very thought provoking, for me in my work as a nurse and midwife; for me as a queer person; and for me as a settler working with First NAtions people. It makes me think about the ways lateral violence does the work of white supremacy and other oppresive systems. These tools are very powerful ways to reframe stories and elevate stories of hope. I also loved the work Michael White did with ADHD – i would love for my autistic nephew to draw a picture of his autism, will definitely try this out!
Bonnie Borchardt
May 21, 2021Thank you for this wonderful presentation! I was particularly impressed with the youth Youtube video on Lateral Violence! We have a lot of suicide in the northern communities in Canada. I would like to use this video to help youth there. I’d also like to use something similar for staff in the Nursing Home where I’m Chaplain. Sometimes groups undermine each other out of frustration and overwork. This is a way to present it without blame and shame. Thank you for the inspiration!!
sarahgooda@zohomail.com.au
April 23, 2021I think it’s so important to externalise the problem and separate it from the person. Narrative is a great way of doing this. I have found that art and music can be great ways to externalise a problem too.
Warwick Wallace
April 6, 2021When I first heard of NT and it’s narrative motto, “The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem.” What a lightbulb moment, identity can be changed according to the choices people make.
Sarah
March 23, 2021I love the idea of externalising the problem and getting creative with how this is done, letting the client lead the way. I think it can be a very effective way to feel more in control and increase one’s sense of agency by framing the problem in a way that feels familiar, manageable and something that can be related to in different ways. I was also very interested in what was written about lateral violence – it is not a term I had come across before but I have definitely observed it and I can see how applying a narrative approach to help individuals/communities experiencing it would be very helpful and a productive way to start conversations/discussions and empower people to make change.
petronela
March 21, 2021I always finding it challenging to make clients understand that they are not their problems and that the problem is the problem and NEVER THEM. And it is always after they get that they are not their problems that they now are now able to solve those problems.
kylie.richards535@gmail.com
March 21, 2021Sperating the behaviour from the behaver has always been a powerful methodology for helping to identify and plan a way forward that is not stuck in the helplessness of skewed identity. The shame mat and poem are such a brilliant example of symbolism and ceremony to scaffold the externalisation (shame in this case) to create a collectivism and way forward. Beautiful.
Danielle Wedlake
March 20, 2021This series has had me take a closer look at the role grief has played in the colonization of Indigenous women in Canada. Trauma is a “buzz word” right now, but the externalization of grief by Barbara Wingard was particularly helpful in this conceptualization.
I am also working with a young person who has been in therapy for quite some time. They have worked toward coping with visits from anger and have learned quite a bit. The externalization of anger has been particularly helpful in removing shame from the conversation, and speaking directly to the character of anger, and the person’s relationship with it.
Karen Yau
March 5, 2021I think it is very powerful to allow people to see the seriousness and impacts a problem can be. Through externalising the problem, it provides an easier way to address the issue and start a conversation in a non-confronting way. It also provides people with an opportunity to do a reflection. The lateral violence case study really stunned me as it shows how powerful this technique can be to let us talk about the taboo topic.
Tony Magri
January 28, 2021Externalising the problem seems so obvious after watching these videos. The lateral violence script is so practical and easy to understand when set out in this format. Well done.
sullateskee@gmail.com
January 27, 2021I really appreciated the Lateral Violence aspect. I wasn’t aware of the name of the problem until now, but have felt it on many different levels within my own family since my parents were the only ones that moved away from our tribe and reservation area and raised my brother and myself at a much higher level of acculturation than my cousins. I saw so much of it when we would visit my family and certain things that were said about us and vice versa. I know see it with the tribe I work with today. Having the knowledge of the name and being aware of how it works can help me bring it into sessions with my clients and start a larger discussion about it as a community.
naomipersaud99
January 10, 2021The concept of separating the problem from the person is such a simple one, yet it is often overlooked. There are little things I do in my day to day life (and witness in society) that have a similar goal. My father, a very devout Pentecostal would often say things rooted in scripture such as “hate the sin, not the sinner. we all sin”. While I no longer participate in Christianity I actively appreciate the church taking strides to separate the conflicts with their scripture as actions as opposed to a person’s character (ex. LGQBT2S community/ members of the congregation). I have recently begun implementing this separation initiative in my language and thoughts. One of the things I have done is to change my wording and ideas about homelessness. Society would usually call someone living on the streets a “homeless person” (notice the problem first and then the acknowledgement of humanity?) however, I prefer to refer to someone in that situation as “someone living with homelessness”. I also do this with terminology like disability (I use “diffability”, it is a conjunction of different abilities and used to shy away from the “broken” or “incapable” stereotypes) as another example. Keeping a non-judgemental, shame-free zone is so important when dealing with people and with the way we treat ourselves.
Rhianne
December 22, 2020I love the creativity involved in externalising. I found the symbolism of the Shame Mat really powerful. I can just picture people wiping their feet before walking in to the room. It’s a good ritual and good way to put yourself in the right mindset. I loved the ideas from Woorabinda as well. It’s powerful to see the words of the young people.
Karen Tschuna
December 9, 2020love the Shame Mat great work Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kelly
Toni Kernick
December 5, 2020I love this idea of externalising ADHD. This is not only helpful for the young client, but also for the parents to separate the problem from the child and assist them in understanding what it is like for the child to deal with this ‘problem’.
Nicol Rohl
December 2, 2020I really like the ideas of creative processes from Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kerry. I loved the idea of the shame mat they created and the though process put into that. I also liked they process of how they mixed they workers in with the group.
kemcdougall0@gmail.com
October 23, 2020I really loved this area of Narrative Therapy especially Drahm-Butler’s (2015) article that helped me view Aboriginal stories within a broader social context. This shed some light on how Aboriginal people can come to view themselves negatively and place blame on themselves through having witnessed western political influences, past government policies and paternalistic initiatives that have been viewed in the past as normal occurrences. What was powerful for me was seeing how Aboriginal peoples stories about resistance are way of taking political action that can be empowering for them to externalise shame.
Even Aboriginal people hearing about other Aboriginal people’s stories was very powerful in helping them decolonise their story. Narrative therapy is instrumental in helping Aboriginal people heal as it is not associated with traditional bio-medical therapy that attracts shame. This helps Narrative therapists engage Aboriginal people and hold space for them to tell their story in a way that reflects their knowledge that is one more step towards them healing.
Especially compelling for me was Drahm-Butler (2015) mentioning how Narrative therapy takes a position of curiosity that uncovers the story behind the story to eliminate thin conclusions and uncover richer broader narratives based on people’s own knowledge.
Tammy Townsend
October 16, 2020I live in Deniliquin NSW and I am just starting my studies towards becoming a counsellor. I really liked the idea of the Shame May and the discussions around this. I could see myself using this. In addition to describing the feelings of shame I would also have clients describe the feelings of pride so we can work together to make a new story where they can feel pride.
jariah
October 15, 2020I have enjoyed reading all these creative and practical examples on externalising conversation – using topics that are so relevant to working in an AMS
petersmokeydawson@gmail.com
October 6, 2020The transcript of the interview with lateral violence was brilliant. It allowed an open conversation with the full anatomy of lateral violence in a way that I think many people would feel a lot safer than if they were asked themselves to talk about it. I did a lateral violence workshop with Richard Frankland last year and found it very powerful and helpful in understanding the intersectioning impacts of colonisation.
Nicola
September 30, 2020I love that the focus is on honouring the persons strengths and resiliency. Rather than ‘labelling’ people as being a ‘problem’ it reframes as ‘having a problem’. So empowering. Love the shame mat and the idea of leaving shame at the door, thank you Aunty Dolly Hanke and Aunty Kerry Major for this beautifully creative opening ritual for your group and for sharing it with others.
Watched the Alberta video on Lateral violence and found that to be very helpful in understanding the reasonings behind it.
TeriLucas
September 9, 2020I like the concept and practice of externalising. A playful, light-hearted demonstration of the idea is terrific too, and having initial set questions to get people going with it is an excellent idea. And the Shame Mat! Tremendous. Leave your issues at the door. We’re all permitted to begin afresh.
Miranda Leon-Madgwick
August 27, 2020Externalising the problem was identified by Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kerry of Mt.Isa with the shame mat. What a great ideal to give this emotion a form of being and place it where it belongs, at the door. This is something a will do with my community members I work with. By using the therapeutic tool of externalising the problem from the person and than exploring all the history, development, impacts and how to control it power for good in the community members live would improve their wellbeing. And this is something that is more understandable than other professional methods.
Summer
August 18, 2020I created a shame mat with the participants of the women’s group I facilitated. It really resonated with them. It was interesting to see how it was adopted by the other staff in the organization, that were not part of the program, who would take a moment before entering the room to leave their shame behind too.
deborahdowsett@internode.on.net
August 17, 2020I really loved the chapter on sugar, and also the video of Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kerry when they spoke about creative processes to get people yarning, I also love the part about time and how this really does not set up the group well when you put in these time frames that are small.
This the issue I face in mainstream services and this module has empowered me to have those conversations with my programs manager as well as I feel I can give myself permission to be creative than the clinical version of me which I’ve never been comfortable with and this has impacted on how I work effectively. So much to reflect on.