Externalising
“The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem”. These words of Michael White have become well-known within the field of narrative therapy. In this chapter we will explore ways of externalizing problems and the possibilities this brings.
Image from Denborough, David. 2014. Retelling the Stories of Our Lives: Everyday Narrative Therapy to Draw Inspiration and Transform Experience. Norton Books: New York
The following questions and answers about ‘externalising’ were created in response to regular requests from practitioners. We’ve tried to respond to some of the questions that are most commonly asked in training contexts. This article was first published in The International Journal of Narrative Therapy and Community Work, 2002 No.2, and can be found in the book Narrative therapy: Responding to your questions, compiled by Shona Russell & Maggie Carey (Adelaide: Dulwich Centre Publications, 2004).
Externalising – Commonly Asked Questions
This is a story of ‘Sugar’ by Aunty Barbara Wingard. It’s a story about trying to find new ways of working, of trying different things and taking new steps.
Please find the article here: Introducing ‘Sugar’
This short film gives helps us visualise what ‘externalising’ problems can look like and make possible..
In this presentation, Mark Hayward draws on Michael White’s ideas described in the book Maps of Narrative Practice. Mark takes us through Michael White’s Statement of Position Map 1 and how this map enables externalising conversations. Within this presentation Mark also invites you to chart an externalising conversation. We hope this video will enable you to begin using externalising ideas with people you are meeting with!
Please download the following interactive documents. Statement Of Position Map Powerpoint presentation Chart Synopsis Joe transcript“Externalizing conversations in which the problem becomes the problem, not the person, can be considered counter-practices to those that objectify people’s identities. Externalizing conversations employ practices of objectification of the problem against cultural practices of objectification of people” (White, 2007, 26).
White, M. 2007. Maps of Narrative Practice. Norton Books: New York
Further resources If you wish to learn more about externalising problems, you may wish to enrol in our Externalising Conversations online course For Reflection
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
What difference might this make?
Now please consider talking with others below about the ideas, questions and wonderings these resources and questions have raised for you! Please include where you are writing from (City and Country). Thanks!
misstaylorhalliwell
November 29, 2021Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I really enjoyed the Transcript between the therapist and Joey. I thought it was great to see externalisation in an example. I enjoyed seeing how more and more information was gathered. I liked the example questions to to help us gain an understanding of how these ideas can be done.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
In my context of being a counselling student I think problems that can be externalised would obviously be things like depression and anxiety. But also separation of things like bulling or friendship issues. Or popularity in school setting.
What difference might this make?
Externalising these problems allows space for the individual to realise there’s a lot of untold stories they have which they can be focusing on instead of the said problem.
paulsafhill-2631
November 28, 2021I really think externalising is crucial in therapy. The information and videos in this chapter were an absolute treat to watch. Sugar was by far the biggest revelation. I couldnt stop thinking about how i could adopt this with mental health problems in Remote Aboriginal communities where i work. I knew from the last few years of working remotely that seperating the problem from the person was helpful but just in regards to reducing shame issues. I would be worried however about getting the right use of language to externalise to some degree behaviours around violence/domestic abuse as touched on by Mark Hayward. Food for thought. I think it would be very important to practice externalising problems, ones that would be appropriate to the particular fields of work you are in.. Great chapter. I think i will be re doing it again!
Paul – Far North Queensland, Australia
Anthea
November 26, 2021The sugar story. This was a really simple and shows that you don’t have to have a great amount of knowledge to give people their ownership and allowing for an open, honest, and genuine look at their history.
I found this very inspiring and insightful, I’ve worked with Indigenous Australians lots and I wish I had these tools available to me then.
Now going forward I feel more prepared in how to motivate and create discussions around change. eliminating the shame that is so often felt when people exhibit difficult behaviors or feelings.
Isabel Beuve
November 24, 2021It has been very useful to learn how externalising works with more detail and why it is important to see it as the first step previous to other narrative techniques.
The examples of Sugar and the Dog have been quite graphical and also show techniques from children therapy applied and suitable when treating adults.
I have also understood the importance of preventing the therapist to take authorship and instead letting the consultant gain power through their descriptions.
Greetings from Spain, Isabel
Deb
November 23, 2021Mark Hayward’s explanation of mapping caught my attention as it offers a new way to move forward with problem focused conversations. So often our clients have become stuck within a well rehearsed narrative and this technique avails us of a crucial tool to assist them to dig their way out.
I found the technique of externalising years ago, which has been invaluable. Personally, I externalise my Anxiety. It has become a grumpy moaning old man called Frank, including beard, hat and tartan coat. When he is at his worst I have found it very powerful to visualise him as an external feature and simply explain it is time to K#ck off Frank so I can move on.
Nancy
November 20, 2021The enactment of the Joey interview was revelatory. Though Mark was shaping the conversation and titrating the amount and speed of inquiry, it was also evident that Joey felt enough in control to be a consultant on bullying and admit things without the kind of shame that shuts down the work. It’s like a dance with steps that change and reappear as both therapist and client feel their way through the exchange and trust and honesty begin to grow. As a writer, I find that an interesting part of externalizing is the naming of the problem, authored by the client, and distinctly in non-clinical nomenclature. It’s creative and an almost playful use of language that transforms the dynamic.
hannah.roderickhake
November 17, 2021I was particularly struck by the “I have a black dog and his name is depression” video, as a powerful example of how to utilise externalising conversations. I feel excited by the potential applications of this approach for my own work, both as a psychiatrist and a therapist, in externalising issues such as sadness, anger, anxiety, struggles with substances etc. I can see how this approach could open up new conversations and viewpoints, affording people another place to stand and honouring their expertise, skills and knowledges. I am hopeful that utilsing externalising conversations might open up different conversations, aiding work with guilt and shame, allowing room for creativity and imagination. I hope that this approach might help honour people’s own expertise and help them reconnect with preferred identities.
yevheniia.kh
November 16, 2021I really liked the video and materials by Mark Hayward in which he provided us with the sequense of externalising conversations and a list of exact examples of questions for the therapists. These are really useful, thank you!
Kyiv, Ukraine
Sergio Chacón
November 13, 2021The video of the black dog especially caught my attention. It gave me a clear understanding of one way of working on externalising: in a didactic, simple and yet profound way.
In my context, at the community level, the stigma that falls on the Mapuche people and that limits them in their process of social inclusion could be externalised. This can prevent such stigma from being internalised and turning into anticipated stigma that self-limits Mapuche people.
Temuco, Chile.
Diane
November 12, 2021As a parent of adult children who seem to have very different values to me, and who mostly stay out of contact because of past conflicts around these differing values and life choices, it is easy to feel dejected and resentful. I vacillate between blaming myself for being so outspoken and causing rifts, and blaming them for being unreasonable and/or just plain wrong in some of their life choices. I tell myself there is nothing that can be done to change the woeful relationship I have with them, and to just accept the situation and move on. But then I see them in my dreams, and I feel just as I did when they were kids, and all the love I had for them when they were children, comes through me and fills me. When I wake up from these dreams I feel wretched, as though I have lost something so precious, and I feel a lot of grief about my alienation from them. I find myself yearning for meaningful and loving contact. Surely to be able to separate myself more from this problem by externalising it, would give me enough objectivity to see a way to find either some peace with the situation or to find a way to change it.
Hilda
November 10, 2021I found Mark Hayward’s presentation really useful in understanding how we can map out externalising conversations and the purpose for each other the sections. As I followed the video, I was building my own awareness about how the different questions added to the idea of separating an individual from the problem. It also showed me how questions start to slowly build a sense of how an individual wants to show up to a problem. For the first time, I can practically see how this can create “new possibilities”.
On another note, this kind of approach reminds me of the tenants of mindfulness; being open, nonjudgemental and curious to what’s happening in the present moment. In mindfulness, we create distance so that we don’t fall into absorption with our thoughts, it’s very similar to Narrative Therapy, where we create distance so that we don’t fall into absorption with our problems. We create distance to be able to see more options available and also dispel the illusion that we ARE the thought/problem.
I’ve been working in a high school with a lot of students dealing with covid anxiety. I can see how narrative concepts could help with dealing with this anxiety that seems to be taking over their lives. I think questions like “what is your position on the anxiety”, and “how do you want to show up towards the anxiety?” would be really helpful in showing them that they may have a choice in how they deal with it. Hilda- Melbourne.
Chris
November 3, 2021The problem is the problem and that problem’s name is Doug. By externalizing the problem (or Doug as he’s now known), I’m able to create some breathing room from which to explore all of the alternative perceptions I have regarding Doug’s existence in my life. While Doug may be a part of my life, he isn’t my whole life and he doesn’t own my life.
I’m very much looking forward to exploring this narrative edge in a therapeutic setting. Our Eurocentric, clinical social work structure exists as such a heavily diagnostic system that is more than willing to label as it sees fit, all the while encouraging the internalization of ‘the problem’ living within each of our clients.
Calgary, Canada
i_is_corbin@hotmail.com
October 27, 2021The video by Mark Hayward helped me see externalising from a new angle. The contrast between two situations, one where a child is suffering from temper tantrums and externalises the behaviour as a pouncing monster wolf, and the other where a child is being a bully. In the second case, it is important to encourage the child to take responsibility for the behaviour to some degree. Whereas in the first case, it may be appropriate to completely externalise the behaviour. It was interesting to think about the nuances of when it is and isn’t appropriate to externalise behaviour.
Cameron Morgan
October 26, 2021I am really interested in offering young clients the opportunity to draw their problems in a way that personifies them and creates some space between them and the problem. Finding a way to describe/show anger or sadness in a personal way might help shifts some of the guilt or hopelessness and allow room for them to take up the opportunity to be an expert and look for alternative ways of viewing the problem, ow that it is located outside of the self.
Isabel
October 22, 2021Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
Mark Haywards presentation was extremely useful. Taking us through each steps and then providing examples of questions and a practice example was a wonderful way to put this theory into practice. These types of presentations are great for online training as it allows us to understand and make connections to our own practice.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context? What difference might this make?
In the context of hospital work, the externalisation of the experience of grief and loss would be a useful technique. Externalizing the grief experience and utilising metaphors such as growing around grief can help patients to visualize grief as a separate entity, which may not always dominate their current narrative or thoughts as it does within that current moment. This may provide the patient with some peace that the grief does not always impact on them.
CheleneG
October 5, 2021I found the presentation by Mark very powerful.
Insightful as a emerging practitioner, very useful on identifying the strengths of externalising a problem and how to unpack it in the best possible way, with the client using the tools identified within this presentation. I look forward to implementing it in my daily practice. Thank you
Keegan
October 5, 2021I thoroughly enjoyed the concept of externalising. During current practice, I find the use of metaphors to be useful and through facilitating externalisation, many of the same properties are applied. To disconnect the individual from their story allows for an open, honest, and authentic analysis of their history as the individual is encouraged to observe their experiences nonjudgmentally and as a function of external forces. This can lead to a(n) (almost) playful curiosity of presenting concerns outside personal attachment to experience. Similar to metaphors, the client is empowered to share their experiences as explicit to their person and process, adjust, or align their story with their intention(s) through comparisons, relatedness, or rich descriptions.
Ensuring the client’s position on the concern is thoroughly developed, the client is provided with the freedom to explore their history and develop a rich understanding of the causes of behaviours, thoughts, or emotions. According to the DBT perspective, every behaviour has a cause; similarly, through the use of externalisation the individual is encouraged to observe their experience as acting upon, rather than within, themselves. This detachment empowers the individual to act in accordance to their inherent values and accept their history by exploring their experiences with a gentle curiosity opposed to a critical lens. Distancing themselves from their problem will then provide opportunity to reflect upon personal strengths, skills and knowledge that motivates growth and progress.
Don Gunning
October 3, 2021I found the whole concept of externalising new & interesting & the SOP Map will help a lot in helping me get patients to externalise more easily.
Tori
October 3, 2021I found Mark’s presentation really useful in beginning to understand more about externalising conversations and the flow between different aspects of the statement of position map. I would be interested to learn more about how to use these ideas when someone is focused on the behaviours of other people towards them, rather than on their own behaviour.
In my context of community palliative care, one problem that could be externalised is the impact of disease on the body, and the ways that this can cause people to lose their sense of self and feel shame. So maybe naming the disease and separating the self from it, seeing the impacts of it, clarifying their view of it and then connecting to how it is they would like to live despite it.
Neha
September 30, 2021I like the overall content of this chapter, the black dog video was very helpful to know hoe to overcome with the depression. Mark Hayward presentation is very informative and has helped me to use externalising ideas with people I met. I like the structure of the question like “What colour you would describe your depression looks like?” I also enjoy sugar story. I really appreciate the accessible mapping tool.
lara1feinstein@hotmail.com
October 2, 2021Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
Mark Hayward’s description of how he navigated the therapeutic relationship with Joey was valuable to me. I like the fact that shame is taken away from the client. I also appreciated the description around how he would push a little to try to get Joey to gather insight but when it became too difficult he takes a step back, then retry later again.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
I am currently working with adolescents with mental health and substance use concerns, so I think to go back to that place with the client to draw or describe how they view the substances or the depression/anxiety/aggression etc, and to put it into another form rather than a label pre-given.
What difference might this make?
It allows the client to gain insight into how they see it. It can evoke feelings about how the problem actually feels emotionally and physically in the body. It might provide removal from the potential feeling of judgment around a mental health diagnosis.
Manpreet Kaur Mann
September 29, 2021I am a social work student, and I am studying at university of Wollongong NSW Australia.
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I like the idea of externalising the problem. I loves the WHO video clip – ‘I have a black dog, his name was depression’. It gives a wonderful message about how to externalise the depression (which a problem) from the person. It also gives me information about how the person feels under problem or how the problem influences the life of the person.
What sort of problem could be externalised in your context?
In my context, person can feel that she is experiencing depression but I can think that the problem could be low esteem which I could externalised.
What difference might this make?
Externalising the problem, my client will think the impact of it on her life and can try to think in different way.
Ellie Firns
September 29, 2021Ellie, Adelaide, South Australia
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I watched the story of the black dog a number of years ago. It caught my attention, deeply, and made me cry in recognition. Knowing we all have our own little black dog is powerful empathy building. Reading people’s responses to the chapter helps me to anchor the information more fully. “Sugar” was a really good demonstration of culturally respectful group work as well as the practice of externalising.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
I have a story that I am a really bad storyteller. But when a story flows through me it is powerful.
What difference might this make?
Trust.
Don
September 28, 2021The whole concept of externalising & how it might help in therapy has been a refreshingly new approach to the issue of ‘getting into the story’. Getting to grips with the problem at hand & how to ‘see’ it & handle it in different ways.
Will now start to practice looking for Unique Outcomes in my sessions.
Sami
September 28, 2021Hi, my name is Sami and I am from a small town near Kingston, ON, Canada.
This chapter has got me wanting to understand more clearly the differences between humanism and poststructuralism, as the discrepancy there was highlighted. For example, the mention that NT doesn’t believe in a ‘whole self’ that needs to be integrated caught my attention, and I would like to explore more about how various modalities conceptualize the self.
I also really appreciated the Q&A document, particularly the part about working with individuals who act violently, as that was a question I hadn’t yet thought of, so it’s nice to have that in the back of my mind. The mention in that document about how externalizing is all about bringing to light ‘power and politics’ and how issues are often not just individualized but societal or socially constructed/generated.
Lastly, I also appreciated the mention of externalizing positive traits as well in order to pull apart the connections between strengths, knowledge, skills, and those traits. I hadn’t thought of that angle as well.
Sana
September 24, 2021I’m excited to see how use of the position map and charting will assist with being able to discuss and visualize problems. I can see how this will help with learning how to make meaning of something that can be very hard to describe verbally. The chapter has made me consider creative ways discussion/drawing/creating can occur in sessions with young people.
Chelene
September 23, 2021I found the presentation by Mark very powerful. Insightful as a emerging practitioner, very useful on identifying the strengths of externalising a problem and how to unpack it in the best possible way, with the client using the tools identified within this presentation. I look forward to implementing it in my daily practice. Thank you
Glynis Thorp
September 21, 2021Thankyou i have found this very helpful. Many years ago I received training from Wayne McLeod a therapist trained also by Michael White. This revisit of some of the techniques that I learnt about back in the late 1980s and early 1990s will have many benefits. I sometimes use these skills and I have found that they can be very effective. However i find that i still have lots to learn and this update has been a fantastic discovery invigorating my interest to become a very good narrative therapist. I sometimes feel that I know a considerable amount about lots of things but would be very happy to be very very good at a specific therapeutic skill. I think being able to adapt to each client is very important and this type of therapy certainly is worthwhile having in ones skill mix.I have used the externalization model many times. I enjoyed the naming of the problem very good as I needed a reminder on how to do this properly being guided by the client rather than suggesting a name to them.
Belinda
September 20, 2021Love the idea of being able to externalise the problem. After reading all about it, it was wonderful to watch it visually with the WHO video clip – ‘I have a black dog, his name was depression’. This made it all understandable and doable for me. The case study that Mark Hayward went through of the boy Joey, really brought this to life and allowed through the mapping exercise to engage with an accessible mapping tool. I also appreciated Mark discussing people still have responsibility for their actions and when best to limit the use of externalising in practice.
Sarah LaFleur
September 18, 2021The concept of using the statement of position map spoke to me, particularly in its emphasis on characterizing the problem in an experience-near way. As a poet and Sanskrit scholar-practitioner, I have always been fascinated with language’s ability to shape consciousness and initiate transformation. This lesson highlighted the transformative piece of therapeutic traditions that emphasis stories, narrative, and language. When we describe something richly in our own terms, we assume authorship, which allows us to not only understand the problem better but create new storylines. This aspect of narrative therapy also speaks to how I feel as a therapist regarding diagnosis as an inherently disempowering aspect of clinical language. Diagnosis can feel sterile and un-localized without a person fitting this into their own world of meaning. This lesson offered me a possibility of how to work with diagnosis. For example, I could encourage clients to share their own terms, definitions, and descriptions of “anxiety” or “depression.” This could initiate curiosity and catharsis as well!
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
What difference might this make?
LKC_333
September 14, 2021In all honesty, I found this whole chapter super interesting. The resource that caught my attention was Mark Hayward’s presentation on externalising conversations and how he provides numerous examples to simplify its use in a therapeutic setting. I found that the “Wolf” example in the first half of the presentation was a very effective way to synthesise my prior readings on externalising conversations and better understand how to apply it as a therapeutic technique when talking with clients. The idea of making the client a consultant and an expert on the “Wolf” appears to be an effective way to begin to create rich alternative storylines. Another significant part was how he assumed the wolf’s character and expanded on its character when talking with the child client.
Even though I am not seeing clients, I will incorporate several aspects of narrative therapy, especially externalising conversational techniques when I believe it is effective. Coming from a person-centred humanistic approach and seeing the client as an expert in their own lives, I think there is space for a poststructuralist and humanist approach to be used in symbiosis to significant therapeutic effect even though the two are diametrically opposed in terms of how they view a client’s problems and struggles.
liora
September 9, 2021I like how you can externalize the problem because that way the consultant can see himself in a new light, without seeing himself as a problem. Also, it can help families make alliances to solve the problem instead of fighting against each other. Im really excited to take the theory to the practice with the consultants soon.
Sian
September 8, 2021I enjoyed many elements of this chapter, but was most captured by Mark Hayward’s presentation and the article on
“Sugar” as these allowed me room to conceptualise how I would use these concepts in practice. Personally, I could use externalisation to aid me with stress. When I compare the phrases “I’m stressed” versus “I’m being visited by stress” I feel a real sense of workability from the second phrase. How can I get stress to leave? What invited stress in? Where is stress sitting in my body? What makes stress hold me tighter or looser? It provides room for the problem to be observed.
Ellie Firns
September 29, 2021Thank you, your reply allows me to embody my understanding more deeply.
Ernie
September 7, 2021Northland, Aotearoa New Zealand
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
The Black Dog expressed interested me, as the metaphor captivated my interest of how the simplistic animation was able to deliver a powerful message. To externalize depression and give it a name for identity purposes. How the Black Dog affected a person as well as the management of depression.
What sort of problem could be externalised in your context?
A majority of people I work with require assistance with depression, however the ability to externalise strengths is a skill within itself, which is aim to obtain.
What difference might this make?
Alternate responses, different pathways, positive interactions and a new skill.
Jordan
September 7, 2021The transcript was beneficial.
TorCG
September 6, 2021What resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
The last section of the commonly asked questions resource about how externalising conversations can identify the impacts that power and politics have on a person’s wellbeing, and the relief that often comes with this understanding. I like this compared to other counselling modalities which often do not make this distinction and embed social issues within individuals.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context, and what difference might this make?
I work in a school with students, and many of the students speak about the pressure they feel to succeed but often don’t know where this pressure comes from. Externalising conversations could assist students in identifying the source of this pressure, which may come from their parents or teachers. This could provide relief from this pressure and help students in identifying what their own motivations in terms of schooling are. This could also start a broader discussion surrounding the pressure to succeed that is placed on students, rather than them being able to express what their own desires are.
Lisa Shepherd
September 3, 2021Lisa Shepherd, Tangiteroria, Northland, Aotearoa, New Zealand.
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I enjoyed the ‘Sugar’ story. The empowerment of the people is what I enjoyed. The simplicity of externalising diabetes within an indigenous community is wonderful. It is giving the people an understanding of how colonisation has affected them, in an empowering way. Excellent.
What sorts of problems could be externalised in my context?
This opens up spaces for me to enable people in many different ways. We have a mental health issue in Aotearoa that comes in the form of suicide. I would like to be able to offer people another way out of the blackness. This is a key step in the direction I would like to take. Being able to offer people and space to look at troubles in a way that people can understand and assist people to take control in their lives is immense, and to be able to do this in a group setting is fantastic.
What difference might this make?
It could save peoples lives.
Rebeccah
September 1, 2021The case study that Mark went through was very useful, in particular the dangers of externalising violence. I work with women victim/survivors of FDV and am keen to learn more how I can apply this practice to my setting.
briannajarv
August 30, 2021This chapter has been so useful. I love the practical tips and examples around the power of language, and the small steps we therapists can take to ensure our language promotes externalising and separation of identity from the problem. I would be interested to explore how we can use these strategies with people, for example, who are using violence in their relationships – as an emerging practitioner, I am not confident in being able to manage externalising with holding individuals accountable for their behaviour. Interested to see where this course takes me!
Leena
August 25, 2021I was captured by the idea of the map taking the person on a journey and how that journey isn’t in a straight line, but winds and sometimes comes back on itself, to get to the values that are important. The case study of Joey that Mark Hayward went through, really brought this to life and allowed for the exploration to happen that Joey needed to understand his problem. For me, it also showed how valuable this way of working is with children.
Carolyn Procter
August 25, 2021Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I loved the video of the black dog. Having had depression in my life before, it gave an apt description of what it is like. I have even shared this video with some of my friends as it helps to remove the stigma of feeling depressed.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
I have a daughter that is currently struggling with Ticks – Tourette like symptoms. I didn’t have to ask her to name them. She and her friends have already called them Karen. Karen plays up when she is under stress.
What difference might this make?
It’s great that my daughter can look at it as outside of herself and not as something that is her fault. However, Mark Hayward’s idea that not everything can or should be externalised was a great reminder for me too as we do wish to see people take responsibility for their own actions too. We know that people’s behaviour is learned or stems from somewhere; trauma etc, however, we don’t want them to not be culpable for their actions as we wish for them to learn from their mistakes too.