Externalising
“The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem”. These words of Michael White have become well-known within the field of narrative therapy. In this chapter we will explore ways of externalizing problems and the possibilities this brings.
Image from Denborough, David. 2014. Retelling the Stories of Our Lives: Everyday Narrative Therapy to Draw Inspiration and Transform Experience. Norton Books: New York
The following questions and answers about ‘externalising’ were created in response to regular requests from practitioners. We’ve tried to respond to some of the questions that are most commonly asked in training contexts. This article was first published in The International Journal of Narrative Therapy and Community Work, 2002 No.2, and can be found in the book Narrative therapy: Responding to your questions, compiled by Shona Russell & Maggie Carey (Adelaide: Dulwich Centre Publications, 2004).
Externalising – Commonly Asked Questions
This is a story of ‘Sugar’ by Aunty Barbara Wingard. It’s a story about trying to find new ways of working, of trying different things and taking new steps.
Please find the article here: Introducing ‘Sugar’
This short film gives helps us visualise what ‘externalising’ problems can look like and make possible..
In this presentation, Mark Hayward draws on Michael White’s ideas described in the book Maps of Narrative Practice. Mark takes us through Michael White’s Statement of Position Map 1 and how this map enables externalising conversations. Within this presentation Mark also invites you to chart an externalising conversation. We hope this video will enable you to begin using externalising ideas with people you are meeting with!
Please download the following interactive documents. Statement Of Position Map Powerpoint presentation Chart Synopsis Joe transcript“Externalizing conversations in which the problem becomes the problem, not the person, can be considered counter-practices to those that objectify people’s identities. Externalizing conversations employ practices of objectification of the problem against cultural practices of objectification of people” (White, 2007, 26).
White, M. 2007. Maps of Narrative Practice. Norton Books: New York
Further resources If you wish to learn more about externalising problems, you may wish to enrol in our Externalising Conversations online course For Reflection
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
What difference might this make?
Now please consider talking with others below about the ideas, questions and wonderings these resources and questions have raised for you! Please include where you are writing from (City and Country). Thanks!
andra.m
May 20, 2022Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I found all the resources and articles very helpful, the Sugar story was fascinating, and Mark’s video and ppt with the specific
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
What difference might this make?
Donna
May 18, 2022I found the Sugar story very helpful, as well as the Black Dog illustration and Mark Hayward’s statement of position map. These examples bring clarity to what it means to externalize a problem and how to ask leading questions. Problems such as anxiety, depression and shame re trauma could be externalized to help separate a person from the problem.
Donna, BC Canada
Donna
May 17, 2022Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I found the Statement of Position Map 1 very helpful, i have been using externalizing conversations with clients for some time now, but this map really helps to keep close attention to where you are int he conversation. Reviewing the transcript was really helpful tos ee the different locations of the conversation as a guide for where you’re going and what areas need more attention befor eyou can move on. I these tools and examples will strengthen my externalizing conversations with clients going forward.
parmpreet.singh328
May 16, 2022I have found that how pictorial effect can change the whole scenario and help in understanding the things. I also found it interesting that how small steps can change whole situation as walking or doing some sort of activities can help in solving the problems.
lisa.iannazzone
May 10, 2022Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I really enjoyed the power point presentation as it provides great examples on externalizing conversations and how to separate the person from the problem. I loved how it provided the steps to cover while having these conversations and gaining the experience of the person to gain a better understanding on how they perceive the problem. I loved how this could then link to the person themselves finding that rationale for taking action because in my experience, it will not be successful unless it is something the client wants to achieve.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
I am an SA health employee and in my experience, a lot of the issues my clients are facing can be externalized as it is usually related to their health diagnosis.
What difference might this make?
externalizing conversations can be very powerful with my patients as it is allowing them to gain a sense of ownership and re-iterate that they are not defined by their diagnosis. It can be very common for patients to feel defeated or place limitations on themselves due to their diagnosis. “I cant do that because I have this” and part of my role is helping patient adjust to their diagnosis and provide targeted interventions to support them moving forward. externalizing them from their illness can be very empowering and can hopefully create space to empower them to make change, take control and improve their well-being and not be defined by their illness
Lita
April 28, 2022Writing from Washington State USA here.
I really enjoyed Mark Hayward’s whole video, but I especially loved the tidbit at the end about which problems may be appropriate to externalize. I work with both adults and children on the Autism spectrum. Many of these individuals see Autism as part of who they are, not something they would want to externalize. But shame that goes with that, or problems with relationships, or rigid thinking, those could all be externalized and discussed. I enjoyed that Mark used an example with a child because it is more relatable to my current work as many of my clients–even the adults–are child like. I am eager to try this out and also try the position map.
danielle.huntington
April 28, 2022There is a lot to take away from this chapter. What resonates with my current work the most is bringing to light that the problem is the problem, the person is not the problem. Being able to assist others in identifying that their problems do not define them is a great segway in recognizing self-worth, motivation to change, and power to commit to change.
lauraowen04
April 21, 2022Posting from Dublin, Ireland. I found Mark Hayward’s video clear and helpful, especially showing use of the chart in relation to a real transcript. I’ve tried some externalising with clients I support in the past, but now have a much better understanding how to drop down a level and the breadth of questions that could be asked.
Pasha Lyndi
April 12, 2022Really benefitted from the information on Externalisation and the illustrations. Love the ‘Sugar’ transcript! So clear, and sounds so fun as well as healing. I’ve found the last video from Mark Hayward and the Charts for Externalising really helpful, to give me a process. I used it on myself today, when some fear of abandonment wounds were surfacing, and it worked so well… I discover the character of “The Lonely Ghostrelle”, and it started a really insightful dialogue, to notice its influences and effects, and recognise how it tries to keep me safe, but isolated. During the process, I could feel its depth, with sadness and vulnerability arising at moments of the storying. Being able to creatively imagine another reality, another character, another way of living was really helpful, and felt creative and playful. Feeling much more empowered and less at the mercy of this particular pattern arising in my field, now. I’m sure this is just the beginning of the process, but still, it feels clarifying and like it’s helping me become free of feelings of resignation around this story that I’d noticed. Thank you very much to all the contributors and to the Dulwich Centre.
Thulasi Murugiah
April 4, 2022The Black Dog clip was a very powerful message told in a simplistic manner that would serve to encourage seeking help for depression and acknowledging mental health as part of one’s overall well-being.
Externalising is a new angle which I found very interesting and an area I would like to explore. The chart is definitely a great tool to keep the narrative together in order to better help the person.
Mark Hayward’s description and information was very useful and helpful to me. Thank you so much.
Mimi Cooper
March 25, 2022Hello. I’m writing from Cape Town, South Africa.
I really loved the black dog clip and the Sugar story.
In my context in a post apartheid South Africa, I am curious how creating characters to externalise issues of implicit racist and entitled attitudes could be helpful. A bit like the character of a ‘Karen’ became a meme in the US.
I think that bringing humour, fun and imagination into finding ways to talk about things that previously we couldn’t talk about could start a range of different conversations and potentially be very healing.
Peejo Sehr
March 24, 2022I found the Map to be a wonderful framing of having of fluid yet structured conversation of externalization to support the client’s sense of discovery and insight. I also really appreciated how Mark made the distinction of clarifying how in cases of violence and abuse you need to be careful and that the whole process is about taking personal responsibility and insight but staying with where the client’s at and the Map can support you as a practioner to slow down and center the client. Very excited to use the Map! Thanks!
Anna Weber
March 17, 2022I’m thinking about what problems could be externalized in my caseload and I’m noticing cases of avoidance and fear, being tainted by trauma, lack of self-confidence/self-worth, and low motivation. I am especially thinking about a client’s description of their problem as feeling like being in Sims, which could be their own way of understanding depersonalization/derealization.
Additionally, when I think about anxiety that plagues me, I am also exploring the experience-near naming I could see for my own problems: the tight weeping, numb walks, shaky beliefs in myself.
Questions remaining for me: How to hold responsibility and externalizing in relational situations? Not just violent situations but when trying to help clients hold balanced perspectives on their actions and others’ actions. Would externalizing be more focused on maybe the shame that is fueling their actions or defensive blindness that surrounds them?
sharondickinson12
March 11, 2022i thought that mark hayward gave a great example of how externalising with the external map was a very good way of getting onto to the problem.
Caro
March 8, 2022I found the Black Dog clip was a great example to help me understand the concept of externalizing, however I fell I gained the most from Mark Hayward. There was value in each step of the position map but for me number one, Characteristics or Naming stood out. The concept of creating a boundary around the problem so the client can separate themselves from it and then become the expert or authority could make it easier for them to engage in the therapy process.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
From my limited understanding so far it seems that most problems except for violence, and criminal behaviour can be externalised. Although it we cannot separate the client from the act of violence itself, it may be possible to so of the issues that are also present like culture, shaming and silencing. Looking into the of the culture the event occurred within may help, ie. Pub, playground, family, the abuser view the situation from a different point. As Mark suggests, ‘Investigate history of this culture with client, looking at who is disadvantaged, advantaged. How it’s sustained, without separating them out from responsibility but making it clear there are other things going on here as well’. This could be the difference between engaging the person in a different way of viewing their situation or not.
Hamilton, New Zealand
Solomon Boyce
March 5, 2022The story of “Sugar” was really powerful to me. It demonstrated that externalization is not simply a technique, but rather a concept, which means it can be applied with creativity! I am now thinking about the ways that externalization can fit into my own practice, to fit both my own style and that of the clients I am collaborating with. Seeing a variety of ways that the concept has been applied by others gives me more confidence that I understand the underlying ideas and am capable of using them
krsnacaetanya
February 25, 2022Hello Krsna from Australia
I really found the presentation by Mark very useful in demonstrating how to use the conversation map, the transcipt of clients therapy session, the importance of positing and value based conversations.
Being able to apply questions that assist with the ongoing externalising conversations I think would be challenging for me.
I appreciate including how to deal with people who choose violence towards others and placing importance on externalising shaming, silencing for example and exploring and deconstructing cultural and historical influences.
EricaPM
February 24, 2022Hi,
I am writing from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
I found Mark Hayward’s discussion of the practical uses of the SOP Map to be really helpful in bringing these ideas together in practice. It helps to understand how externalizing and building a rich description can all fit together and move toward helping the people we meet with to clarify and move towards their values.
I also really appreciated the mention of externalizing as a way to place in history and culture what was created through history and culture as opposed to being an innate fact of a human being.
Alice
February 18, 2022Alice, Maryland, USA.
The narrative story of the Black dog was quite profound. The use of a beloved household friend, in describing a problem that is usually viewed as bad in society, tugged at my heart. It gave me ideas for working with the young population in therapy. Kids generally like telling stories, and I think using this form in terms of working with whatever they come to me with, can prove to be efficient.
Working through the lens of externalizing could be a game changer for children diagnosed with ADHD, Conduct disorder, and other behavioral problems. I get to work from the position of a learner, while giving my clients full autonomy to make sense of themselves, and the perceived issue.
Thank you!
Grace
February 10, 2022Writing from Armidale, NSW, Australia.
Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I particularly resonated with Mark Hayward’s Statement of Position Map 1. This provides a clear and impactful framework for engaging with a client in an externalisation process, each step is necessary and clearly builds for the client a sense of authority over a problem to which previously they may have felt beholden, constrained and weighed down by. Notable is the notion that one should not assume a client’s position in relation to the problem.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
In my context I have used this for a variety of problems that I recognised as “taking over”, from medical conditions such as Rheumatoid Arthritis, experiences of anxiety and now I am using it to create distance between myself and less desirable behaviours in relation to mothering.
What difference might this make?
The difference this strategy makes is profound. It allows a sense of agency and ownership of one’s own life. It demonstrates the space between self and problem. It allows for the notion of a life without the problem or in better relation with the problem.
Caro
March 8, 2022Hi Grace, your post caught my eye. Iam new to narative therapy but I would be very interested in how you might use this in the case of Artritis you mentioned. Thank you Caro NZ
christopher.sullivan
February 10, 2022The problem is the problem… by extricating ‘problem behaviours’ from ourselves, that externalization gives us the space to reflect on who we are as individuals. We are not worriers though we may experience worry. We are not DEPRESSED though the Black Dog may follow us around. We are not defined by our challenges. As well, when we look back at creating multiple storylines, externalization of problems creates alternate pathways in which we can view our lives as opposed to being defined by ‘the problem’.
Melanie
February 8, 2022Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?
I really found Mark Hayward’s Statement of Position Map an effective tool in being able to track a conversation but also an experience for a person to be able to visualise where they have been but also where they may still need to go. This could aid in directing and guiding future sessions.
I also found that Matthew Johnstone’s video on externalising of the black dog of depression a great very clear and visual depiction that I could utilise with clients.
What sort of problems could be externalised in your context?
Given that I work across youth and adult services, I feel that I will be able to utilise Statement of Position Map with clients of all ages. I feel that this will show significant value and empowerment for clients that have been struggling with validation and naming of what is occurring for them.
What difference might this make?
Creating client awareness and insight into their experiences including being able to name and hold value of their thoughts and feelings.
Riverland, South Australia
Natalia Ivanova
February 6, 2022This chapter brought a lot of things I’m currently thinking of. Thank you very much for these materials!
I really like the metaphor of the Black dog as the image of depression: it is so accurate, vivid and catching. I think for some people this short video would be helpful and supportive as a starting point to see that their state is understandable and can be treated. I also think that this video is one of the best examples of how to explain what externalising is.
The statement of position map by Mark Hayward is extremely helpful. I followed the video and was trying to map the conversation.I knew about the externalising conversations from M. White’s book, but here that was my first practice of mapping. I’m so thankful for the opportunity to practice while studying.
I also think of possibilities to use externalising in my work with adults and their requests on anxiety, procrastination, fear of failure and other. Thank you very much for this course!
Natalia, Moscow, Russia
tamrinamatta
February 2, 2022Hello
I am Tamrina from Amritsar, India. This course and these concepts are proving to be very insightful and I am extremely eager to go through the rest of the course.
The Black Dog of depression video showed me a very different perspective from what I have learned in the more conventional forms of therapy during my education. The section about describing the frequently asked questions about narrative practices halped me understand a great deal about how valueable a tool Narrative Therapy can be in my practice as a therapist.
Sameen
February 1, 2022The black dog video was very informative and gave me insight on how people internalize their own mental health issues on themselves. externalizing the issue is the first step towards accepting the problem. This will help in finding the solution and in some cases coping up skills.
Anna Weber
January 31, 2022I’m thinking about what problems could be externalized in my caseload and I’m noticing cases of avoidance and fear, being tainted by trauma, lack of self-confidence/self-worth, and low motivation. I am especially thinking about a client’s description of their problem as feeling like being in Sims, which could be their own way of understanding depersonalization/derealization.
Additionally, when I think about anxiety that plagues me, I am also exploring the experience-near naming I could see for my own problems: the tight weeping, numb walks, shaky beliefs in myself.
Questions remaining for me: How to hold responsibility and externalizing in relational situations? Not just violent situations but when trying to help clients hold balanced perspectives on their actions and others’ actions. Would externalizing be more focused on maybe the shame that is fueling their actions or defensive blindness that surrounds them?
Holly Mak
January 27, 2022This chapter was a great introduction to externalising conversations — what they are, and how they work in a therapeutic or even everyday context. As a counsellor working with mostly Hong Kong-based clients, I’ve come across many individuals who are stuck on internalised narratives of shame and self-blame (often reinforced by a collectivist, hierarchical culture), resulting in low self-worth and strained relationships (just to name a few of the effects). Having experimented with some externalising techniques in my work, it’s been moving to see how powerful externalising conversations can be in planting a seed of empowerment in people’s lives. Once the problem is put “at arm’s length”, as Mark Hayward mentions in his presentation, a whole school of unexpected possibilities arises for future action.
I found the Statement of Position Map presentation a very valuable exercise for getting a sense of how externalising works in conversation. Following the transcript of the conversation alongside the Map itself with Mark Hayward’s guidance allowed me to see how artful these conversations need to be. The non-linear process, i.e. repeatedly asking different questions and gauging what this opens up in the person by way of clarification of values, effects, and connections — reminded me of shooting a basketball. Each shot the therapist takes may not sink through the hoop, but each try is equally important. I admired Mark’s sensitivity, patience, and agility in discerning 9-year-old Joey’s position on the problem. He was artful in ensuring that he was co-authoring Joey’s story, and not becoming its primary author.
Melissa July
January 20, 2022I could see this approach being very useful when working with children and with adults in helping them become an observer instead of being entangled in the problem.
Jenifer
January 15, 2022I found Mark’s presentation using the chart and the transcript of the client’s session super helpful. Through questions designed to get to the problem, the client’s insight and values were used to then identify an alternate path he could utilize and ways this alternate path would be differ. Also, enjoyed the “Sugar” story, as this was a clever way to help others identify the problem without putting any one person on the spot.
Morgan Brooks
January 18, 2022I really appreciated the idea of “experience near” vs “experience distant” descriptions of the problem as I find that so many people are identified with their problems in ways that uphold pathologizing narratives about mental health. I knew this about narrative therapy already but I like this particular way of describing the aims of externalization of the problem. I also really appreciated the way Mark was able to keep accountability in the conversation while still externalizing the problem. It felt very skillful to say “kinds of bullying you can get into”. It really makes sense when we have kids changing positions on the bullying/bullied spectrum – this gives them specific language about behaviour that they want to uphold and behaviour they want to move away from. Oh, and I put a star in my notes about making sure we get the person to take a position on the problem so that we aren’t in the position of being the expert or telling them how they should feel about it and moving the conversation ahead without the person.
pra.cas
January 14, 2022The resource in this chapter that particularly caught my attention was the story of “Sugar”. Not only did it explore externalising problems, but doing that in a way that was playful, collaborative and disarming.
As a psychologist working primarily in schools and early childhood, the problems that could certainly be useful to externalise are “anxiety”, “defiant” and “oppositional”. I often hear these terms used in a way which provides very little understanding of what a person is actually experience or how they are behaving.
I believe externalising these terms would provide a greater sense of shared understanding and meaning of what people are experiencing, and feel more grounded in ‘real life’ as opposed to more alien, clinical terms.
Rantshoke David Makhema
January 13, 2022I appreciate the tools or process on how to externalise the problem. Firstly, a problem is a problem and not a person. Therefore it is to important to separate the problem from a person. The process is Respectful and Questions are to be asked from Curiosity and not any pre-knowledge like an expert. Only the client is skillful and competent to tell the story about the problem. Once this foundation is done then, step by step one moves up and down the chart according to the dialogue and questioning from Naming, Effects/ Connections ( immediate , and past) Position/Experience and then Values( where a unique outcome and or preferred life may emerge.). Any feeling like shaming , worthless, anger but not acts of violence, like murder, abuse and so on. Connection with the problem is necessary to weigh the experience and seek alternatives. However, one must still remain responsible for own actions and behaviour to be able to pursue a better life.
Krsna Mayshack-Mendero
January 9, 2022I really found the presentation by Mark very useful in demonstrating how to use the conversation map, the transcipt of clients therapy session, the importance of positing and value based conversations.
Being able to apply questions that assist with the ongoing externalising conversations I think would be challenging for me.
I appreciate including how to deal with people who choose violence towards others and placing importance on externalising shaming, silencing for example and exploring and deconstructing cultural and historical influences.
mmccollum@callutheran.edu
January 7, 2022I can’t speak highly enough about the statement of position map and the video/powerpoint that went along with it. I have since spoken to several friends and colleagues about it! As a trainee, I am always happy to have a straightforward, pragmatic presentation of therapeutic materials, and this segment of the chapter was very helpful and useful to me. I can see much more clearly now how one can integrate the narrative mindset into the therapeutic conversation, and I also very much appreciate the way in which mapping a conversation can provide better information about how to improve sessions moving forward. Maggie, Los Angeles, USA
Sophia
January 7, 2022I really liked the resource that described the story of “Sugar”. I thought this was such a neat way of taking a big scary topic of diabetes and making it more approachable and even fun to talk about. I also appreciated the video by Hayward explaining the Statement of Position Map. I am a big visual person and can see the benefit of being able to track a conversation with a client to see where we have been and what else may be helpful to discuss.
I think that externalization techniques can be helpful for a variety of problems that people internalize, whether mental health or behavioral challenges. I work in schools with children with challenging behaviors and I can see the value of separating the child from the problem; it is not the child who is the problem, the problem is instead affecting the life of the child.
Sophia, Nova Scotia, Canada
Sunny
December 25, 2021I loved the vdo by Mark, and Michael’s use of chart in working with clients. What seems to be most helpful is the inquiry into the client’s narrative and thoughts about the thing they are struggling with. The inquiry brings a sense of awareness, an insight, as well as creating awareness and responsibility, like giving authority and ownership but in a non judgmental context.
Darcie
December 21, 2021I enjoy the concept of asking the persons ‘position’ on the problem, its true that many people I work with have never been asked that before! They at first find the question confusing but them in can really bring out the complexity of the issue they face and really help to externalise the diagnosis that has been put on them.
Darcie, Mackay, Australia
DallasBryan
December 17, 2021The statement of position map in the video from Mark Hayward stuck out to me as very useful. This resource helped me make connections about how narrative therapy is implemented in practice, and particularly how helpful it can be as an approach with children. I also did not understand the importance of the client creating their own descriptions outside of typical pathologizing language such as “depression” or “anxiety”.
emma030497@hotmail.co.uk
December 14, 2021I found that Matthew Johnstone’s externalising of ‘the black dog’ of depression caught my attention – it provides a very clear and moving example of how effective visualizing one’s problem as external to their ‘self’ can be, but also how it doesn’t mean you’ve got rid of the problem but have just learnt how to manage it without it being attached to who you are as a person.
In the context of working with couples where one has dementia to maintain relationship continuity, I think the idea of externalizing the dementia from the individual will help couples to feel less discontinuity in their relationship, to feel that they still are the same people but with a problem that needs addressing together, rather than seeing the person as the problem.
Alyssa
December 10, 2021I have not before learnt about externalisation and I found this to be a fantastic starting point for myself. It was also really interesting to see how this technique can be used with clients and the resources provided will be helpful. Alyssa, Broome
Sandra
December 1, 2021I really enjoyed Mark Hayward’s video on Michael White’s Statement of Position Map 1. It was very clear, the questions and different stages of externalization well- explained. Thank you.
As a Time to Think coach, I often see women with “People-pleaser” syndrome and they see it as an obstacle to achieve personal goals. I would really much try this externalization practise with them.
The difference it might make is to separate this “problem” from their own identities and understand how it can be a part of a broader historical and cultural context.
Kat
December 5, 2021Thanks, Sandra. I just went through the Statement of Position Map, externalizing the Helpless Homemaker/Martyr Mother “in me” and then saw your post. I have been trying to reconcile this within myself for years. Externalizing the problem has allowed me to make life changing decisions this week simply by seeing the situation, my son’s needs, and my needs clearly. I think you will have a lot of success using this technique!
– Kimberley, B.C., Canada