Externalising

“The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem”. These words of Michael White have become well-known within the field of narrative therapy. In this chapter we will explore ways of externalizing problems and the possibilities this brings.

Image from Denborough, David. 2014. Retelling the Stories of Our Lives: Everyday Narrative Therapy to Draw Inspiration and Transform Experience. Norton Books: New York 

The following questions and answers about ‘externalising’ were created in response to regular requests from practitioners. We’ve tried to respond to some of the questions that are most commonly asked in training contexts. This article was first published in The International Journal of Narrative Therapy and Community Work, 2002 No.2, and can be found in the book Narrative therapy: Responding to your questions, compiled by Shona Russell & Maggie Carey (Adelaide: Dulwich Centre Publications, 2004).

Externalising – Commonly Asked Questions


  This is a story of ‘Sugar’ by Aunty Barbara Wingard. It’s a story about trying to find new ways of working, of trying different things and taking new steps.

Please find the article here: Introducing ‘Sugar’


This short film gives helps us visualise what ‘externalising’ problems can look like and make possible..

In collaboration with the World Health Organisation Matthew Johnstone tells the story of overcoming the “black dog of depression”. More information on the book can be found here: http://matthewjohnstone.com.au/

 

In this presentation, Mark Hayward draws on Michael White’s ideas described in the book Maps of Narrative Practice. Mark takes us through Michael White’s Statement of Position Map 1 and how this map enables externalising conversations. Within this presentation Mark also invites you to chart an externalising conversation. We hope this video will enable you to begin using externalising ideas with people you are meeting with!

Please download the following interactive documents. Statement Of Position Map Powerpoint presentation Chart Synopsis Joe transcript  

“Externalizing conversations in which the problem becomes the problem, not the person, can be considered counter-practices to those that objectify people’s identities. Externalizing conversations employ practices of objectification of the problem against cultural practices of objectification of people” (White, 2007, 26).

White, M. 2007. Maps of Narrative Practice. Norton Books: New York
 
  Further resources If you wish to learn more about externalising problems, you may wish to enrol in our Externalising Conversations online course   For Reflection

Which resource in this chapter particularly caught your attention and why?

What sort of problems could  be externalised in your context?

What difference might this make?

 
  Now please consider talking with others below about the ideas, questions and wonderings these resources and questions have raised for you! Please include where you are writing from (City and Country). Thanks!  

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  1. mpatrick

    Hi Madeline from Sydney.

    I really liked the idea of not using fighting or eliminating words in terms of getting rid of the problem totally – so the idea that it might always be part of your life but you can weaken it so it is not the control commander (in a central position). You can reuse the new skills you learn against it for when it pops up again or grows stronger. It gives it less power. I also loved the sugar story – I love role play – such a powerful tool. I found Mark Hayward’s Charting Synopsis – also helpful and the idea that if they’re not able to answer a question it’s worth returning to the previous level and exploring that more before trying again.

  2. Dyuti

    For me the last three resources were outstanding! right from the story of sugar which actually demonstrated using externalisation for educational and social causes, increasing awareness, to the characterisation of depression as a black dog which helped me view the details one can explore using externalisation and finally the last exercise which helped me learn the map along with applying it. In my context whenever i feel clients fuse their identity and existence with the problem is the time when this can really help them earn their personhood back , the most beautiful thing is that they really earn it, it is not a mechanical learning, as they move up and down through the map they really delineate their identity from a non problem space. I think i’m excited to be able to use this. It is definitely going to. help me move beyond the extremely internalised conversations that might often happen in the therapy room, because of the psychological nature of problems. It will also help in keeping the hope and solution focused approach, seeing the client as the author or expert on the problem and not as the problem.

  3. ellenjin02

    Ellen from Shanghai, China: very vivid examples are given as to how to structure a real externalising conversation. Basically, the postion map gives a clear outlines of what to do. However, we need to be flexible in practice, going back and forth to enable the conversation be live and effective. Mark’s presentation is great.

  4. catherine.ann.smit

    Hi,
    I’m Cat the holistic health coach from the Sunshine Coast Hinterland.

    As Narrative practice developed out of postmodern thought, which, as I understand it, has an assumption that stories are all equally “true”, this could be problematical when thinking about how that fits with the truth of those who have experienced oppression of one kind or another. Is there a “true” story? A “true” history of events?

    In regard to this discomfort, I was glad to see in both “Commonly Asked Questions” and Mark Hayward’s presentation that particular care has been taken in utilising the idea of externalising to not undermine people taking responsibility for acts of violence – not separating the person from their responsibility in the process of externalising. And, at the same time, a commitment to also find ways to work with those who have used violence to compassionately invite responsibility.

    In my context of working with health behaviours, the story of “Sugar” really caught my attention as a way to work with people with chronic health conditions to undermine the societal and self blaming. Also as a way to dialogue in a group to find a rich description of ways that people resist the purposes of “Sugar”, that would support alternative ways of acting in regard to those clients’ health conditions.

  5. rolf.lungwitz

    Hi Rolf from Adelaide, South Australia again,
    I find the idea of externalising and personifying of problems such as the Black Dog (depression) and Sugar (diabetes) a helpful approach. Also, I found it helpful to learn that externalising does not mean minimising the effects of the problem on the person and on others. The example of Mark Hayward’s use of the Position Map in his interview with the young boy was very helpful. It was a great demonstration of how to help someone arrive at a place where they more fully understand their behaviour, its effect on others, and come to a personal ethical value position where they begin to seek a new story by which to live.

  6. Chris

    Hello, I am Chris form Melbourne. I have been transiting my practice from alcohol and other drug service to dual diagnosis of mental health and AOD. I have been enjoy learning more about narrative therapy and reflecting on my interactions with clients in a therapeutic context. The externalising reminds me to focus on the person and not their problems. I noticed that when using externalising, my clients have automatically felt weightlifted and more willing to talk about the problem and drawling more inner strength from their experiences.

  7. jillsummerwill

    Jill from Canada, I really enjoyed all the resources, the Black dog story was a great example of how to externalise and make connections between the effects, I enjoyed the practical tools and examples in the powerpoint and am very grateful for this. I appreciate the development of identifying the problem and the effects this has on the person while keeping the person separated from blame but acknowledging impact. it also allows the actual problem to be understood, identified and address it critically while keeping it in context of the person’s experiences.

  8. Francesca Lander-McLeod

    As a clincian who is interested in ADHD/Autism, externalising certain experiences that often occur could be a really helpful way to support them as they navigate a society that often shames, denigates and marginalises their minds and experiences. Especially for people who are newly diagnosed, unravelling the stories that they, and the people around them of how they move through the world will be less pathologising than many other frameworks on offer. For people with Autism/ADHD/AuDHD they often experience significantly more negative feedback from peers and authority figures, due to their difference. Being able to externalise aspects of social norms could be helpful e.g. Culture of eye contact, being able to perform like someone without ADHD/Autism and even being able to manage “normal” environment like an offices can be incredibly challenging. Giving an individual the autonomy to share how they frame an experience/ environment e.g. an office and reinstating their authority on their experience e.g. an office environment may be a stifling, loud, bright and alien world and then working on shame (e.g. the shame of being different and not liking the office, experiences of being shamed by management for not being a “team player” who wants to go back to an office environment). Looking at an individuals values, may support a roadmap later of how they approach the problem (the problem being that the office is a poor environment for them to thrive, not that they are weird/different to not liking the office and it’s culture). May support the individual to request accommodations from their workplace, or try and find another workplace that aligns with their values and interests so the problem may not be as prominent going forward.

  9. Chelsea Weston-Arnold

    Hello, my name is Chelsea and I’m writing in from South Morang in Victoria. I found the video on the “black dog of depression” caught my attention, as I work in mental health, and this is really relatable to my practice and the clients I work with. It’s a great example of exteranalising ‘depression’ from the person and creating space between the person and the diagnosis, and also creating an experience-near description of this person’s experience with depression and how it feels for them. I find this really tangible, and other mental health diagnoses could be used to have conversations about how they experience their diagnosis rather than feeling like they are the label they have been given without attaching any meaning to it or how it effects their day-to-day life and functioning.

  10. yeeweicheo

    Greetings, I am Yee Wei from Singapore. I watched the lecture by Mark Hayward twice and finds it clarifying how to have externalizing conversations. It was interesting to find out how it’s important to elicit experience-near description of the problem when we are doing so. In the current climate whereby, people tend to use diagnosis as a figure of speech and not for what it is meant, I wonder if it will be difficult for clients to create their own description when they adopt a term to describe their experience wholesale. I will be curious how using this statement of position map Mark outline will be with the clients I work with. The way Mark illustrates that sometimes these conversation may not be linear gives me the handles and to not panic when we don’t seem to be going anywhere. Looking forward to trying this out.

  11. mo.beans.mosley

    So many good resources in this chapter, I couldn’t choose one over the others. The Black Dog video was a lovely representation of using someone’s own metaphors to externalize an issue like depression. The “Sugar” story provided ways to think about using an externalization to contextualize challenges in culturally appropriate ways to help people understand complicated issues and work communally to challenge those issues. And the video from Mark Hayward (with supplemental materials) provided great questions to begin mapping conversations with clients to cover the gamut of narrative therapy aims.
    What sort of problems could be externalized in my context? All of them, probably. The one I’m struggling with right now is the internalized body shame I’ve received since I was in my mother’s womb – literally – since she dieted throughout her pregnancy. Then there are societal norms, I was a ballerina, and the list goes on. Being free of internalized body shame would be . . . unfathomable! Do any of us get to know what that feels like? Particularly since most people still subscribe to killing themselves in the gym and kitchen rather than reduce the weight of internalized messages from their daily mental struggles. Makes me wish I had a community rallying around body positivity like in the Sugar story. Hmmmm, how could I build a community to rally around this issue like in the Sugar story? Hmmmmmm . . .

  12. dvmilam

    I enjoyed the story about Sugar and how her idea opened up a learning opportunity for a people group to exchange questions and knowledge about a disease that is truly a silent killer. Getting people to dialogue about something that is not normally talked about is an accomplishment and I liked how she used stated questions to begin with which led to them being comfortable enough to ask their own questions.
    I also liked the Black Dog video. It gives people hope that they may be able to control their problem and that it does take hard work. It also externalized the problem after being able to speak to someone about it.

  13. caglakarademir

    Externalization is an effective way to get people to understand that they and the problem are not the same thing. I also use the externalization technique in my practical work with my students and I observe that it is very effective. Repositioning the client in the face of the problem and describing the problem in a different way allows the client to separate from the problem. Obtaining more detailed information about the purpose of externalization, externalizing conversations, what to externalize, and the effects of externalizing conversations further expanded my perspective on the subject. “Black Dog” is a very effective visualization to exemplify externalization. At the same time, I believe that the “Sugar” study developed by Barbara Wingard regarding diabetes prevention is an effective study that can be adapted to different subjects. I also read with interest White’s practices of objectifying the problem.

  14. Kate26

    I love that the chart has been supplied, I can see myself having this as a reminder in sessions. A reminder of the points, a note recorder, and a reminder that it’s okay that we don’t do this in a linear way. I look forward to trying this out, and found benefit in hearing about the questions used to explore this pathway of externalising. In my context I think it will be good to externalise worry, panic and grief in the context of family violence. I think it will be helpful for people to be able to really think about their position on this, as it is often viewed as bad to have emotions or responses to things when it is really providing you with protection. I think this will help an alternative narrative, and thickening this decription outside of a therapist just giving psycho-education as the alternative narrative.

  15. louisepmccabe

    My name is Louise and I’m a counselling student living on Kaurna country. I love this sentence: “The person is not the problem. The problem is the problem.” For me, this instantly reduces shame, and creates curiosity about the problem – its origins, what it’s trying to say, what it might mean to the client. It also gives the client permission to talk about an issue or condition using words or phrases that make sense to them. I also love the creative approach it provides to help you and a client work through an issue.

    1. yinandtonicwithkel

      Hi Louise, I came here to say this as a MH Peer specialist I find with people I work with the focusing on the problem is a welcome detour from the usual person is the problem focused problem solving and reduces the shame or historical self blame so that they have engaged more actively and successfully co-opted solutions for their concerns.

  16. billywadeodonnell

    I think this is perhaps the most difficult to put into practice. When I thought about this within my own life I realised how hard it is not to criticise a person. However, the course explained that this concept does not excuse or remove people from the consequences of their behaviour. Which is an important note.

    Externalising conversations, or personifying an issue for example, ‘Mr Aids, or the “Black Dog” seperates the person from the act, feeling, behaviour or sensitive topic.

    Potentially, I think externalising names in practice could potentially come across as patronising.

  17. mandyklc

    I am especially fond of the story about “Sugar”. I imagine the shame associated with certain diseases is one of the barriers to people opening up. I love that in Sugar, the facilitator made it that they were in the ‘hot seat’ and anyone can ask any question about Sugar the character. I am gonna try doing this for my high school students for various topics like vaping, substance use, and sex education.

  18. ammaez

    I really appreciate how externalizing allows for exploration and analysis of a problem while detaching from judgement and, subsequently, shame. The example of taking a client through externalizing demonstrates how is can be done in a very natural way where curiosity leads the conversation and allows both the client and therapist to partner together in exploring a problem.

  19. Sarah

    Sarah from the UK: Mark’s presentation and ppt was so informative and clear. My work is not as a therapist or coach but as a business writer, but I remain fascinated by the prompts of this material and the potential impact on how I craft business stories. I like to think I always choose words carefully, but it has made me question the impact of standard “corporate speak” and how that might make a wider audience of readers feel. I feel like going back to some of my material and reconsidering it through this insightful lens!

  20. Martin

    I love the emphasis on the non-adversarial, non-combative ways of addressing one’s problems (see Q7 of ‘commonly-asked questions’) that Externalising Conversations allow. This approach is very much in line with my own values and ethics. There is so much conflict in this world, so it is truly heartening to discover a therapy approach that doesn’t require the client to ‘defeat’ or even ‘fight’ the problem (very much a mindset of the toxic imperialistic patriarchy which has sadly shaped so much of western culture: in order to succeed, I must be ‘better than’ someone or something else outside of the self). But negativity begets negativity I find, so focussing instead on “reclaiming” one’s self, or “negotiating with” or “managing” a problem is very refreshing and forward-looking. The world needs more of this proactive positivity in its healing methods, and less reactive defense-based conflict models.

  21. mara.bennett

    Mark’s lecture was so insightful, very clear and straightforward. It has really demystified the externalizing process. I’ve used externalization to a certain extent in my work and in my own reflections of myself, but I have not used the statement of position map before. I like the idea of exploring a problem by using strategic methods of inquiry – it provides a really nice scaffolding for conversations. One case study from my work involved externalizing a client’s “panic” which he described as an earthquake in his chest. We talked about how to get through an earthquake, what situations lead to an earthquake, are there times when the earth is more stable and not quaking, etc. In myself, I’ve used externalization to talk about insecurities, I call it “the heckler.” It’s like a heckler in the audience of a performance saying “haha! You can’t do this!” By creating this character, it becomes an entity outside of “me,” and something I can engage with it critically. Essentially it allows me to dispute that voice or turn the volume down, call the bouncers to take it out, or engage it in banter and see what else it has to say, when is it helpful and what does it want me to know?

  22. John Hankins

    Writing from Colorado, USA. I find the idea of externalizing to be really powerful and Mark Hayward’s video and slides provide a great introduction. I can see that there is a lot to learn here and I’m looking forward to incorporating it into my practice. My first step is to use this in my own life to externalize some of the baggage I’ve been carrying around for a number of years. I am finding this is a good way to get started.

  23. christine.jc.ellwood

    I loved Mark Hayward’s presentation and his discussions with children to externalize problems. I can see how this can be extremely effective with children as the approach seems very engaging to children and allows children to use their imagination.

  24. keishacorbeil

    I enjoyed Mark Hayward’s presentation and appreciated the example of questions to utilize with people to external their problems. I enjoyed when Mark went through a transcript example and how he went from different levels in the position map throughout the session/conversation.

  25. amandan

    Mornington Peninsula, Victoria/ Boon Wurrung country.
    So many interesting paths to follow with the concept of externalising. I like the potential of practicing an externalising approach to any number of problems…then moving towards understanding a personal position of values opens more possibilities for investigation. I’m curious about where this approach leads, whether culminating in a specific location or for opportunities for continuing exploration.

  26. Anjali Bhatia

    The Black Dog called Depression was a remarkable resource in this module. I work with a population of young students in a highly competitive academic environment. In their early teenage years, these students develop a strongly internal locus of control which, often, leads to internalisation of problems, e.g. “I am an overthinker” or “I feel like I am a constantly miserable person.” Externalisation as a technique can really help them separate themselves from the problem–which I think would not work against assuming responsibility of working through it. Internalisation often leads to a resigned attitude i.e. “If this is the way I am, it’s almost impossible to change it. Could you tell me some ways of functioning while I continue to be this?” whereas a problem-distant mapping may allow them to identify the problem’s slow but insidious effects on their lives.

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