Externalising the problem
The person is not the problem!
“The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem”. These words of Michael White have become well-known within the field of narrative therapy. In this chapter we will explore ways of externalising problems and the possibilities this brings.
An introduction to externalising the problem from Tileah
Story of practice: Externalising conversations
Tileah Drahm-Butler
Shame Mat
Aunty Dolly Hankin and Aunty Kerry Major
Externalising can be used with groups in creative ways. Aunty Dolly Hankin and Aunty Kerry Major in Mount Isa, for example, have created the Shame Mat!
Thwarting shame: Feminist engagement in narrative groupwork
Kylie Dowse
‘You can call me Sugar’
This is a story of ‘Sugar’ by Aunty Barbara Wingard. It’s a story about trying to find new ways of working, of trying different things and taking new steps.
Please find the article here: Introducing ‘Sugar’
(from the book Telling our stories in ways that make us stronger by Barbara Wingard and Jane Lester)
Talking about Grief
Aunty Barbara has also created a character of ‘Grief’ to assist people to grieve and honour.
Please find the article: Grief: Remember, reflect, reveal
(from the book Telling our stories in ways that make us stronger by Barbara Wingard and Jane Lester)
Lateral Violence
This is one of the most influential externalising conversations ‘scripts’. It was developed by Aunty Barbara to assist people to talk about Lateral Violence.
A conversation with Lateral Violence
Also included are documents about the special skills that Elders and young people from Woorabinda community are using to respond to Lateral Violence.
(from the book Aboriginal narrative practice: Honouring storylines of pride, strength & creativity by Barbara Wingard, Carolynanha Johnson & Tileah Drahm-Butler)
Aunty Barbara encourages you to give it a try!
Aunty Barbara Wingard, Carolyn Markey and Chris Dolman
This video is from a workshop with Aunty Barbara, Carolyn and Chris.
mareef
September 21, 2023The person is not the problem! This is something that I think is very important and something I will take with me from this course. It allows a whole new way of thinking and a whole new way to assist those we work with to enable them to try to free themselves from labels.
abbey.goode1998
August 21, 2023I specifically enjoyed this module and the concept of the problem being the problem. Externalizing the problem allows space for creativity which supports a practioner to tailor the concept to suit the needs of the individual and the ways in which they process thoughts, feelings and experiences.
julietta
July 12, 2023Absolutely love Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kerry, putting all the important principles of NT into plain simple language and explaining how they fit so well for ATSI people. Really love the emphasis on yarning as the core strength and skill that has kept this culture strong and alive for many tens of thousands of years… (whitefellas didn’t invent nothin’!) and love the part about ‘system way’ and how it is not yarning when it’s time limited and structured… “It’s all about the cup of tea” has got to be the best statement of good practice I’ve ever heard
jessica-1758
June 26, 2023Externalising the problem, such a powerful concept that can really allow the person who is experiencing the problem to be able to view things differently. I loved this section of the training as it really resonates with my practice and some of the successes my clients have experienced when being able to externalise the issue or problem that they have identified with or see themselves as being the root cause of. Shame can be so powerful and debilitating and was certainly well addressed in this section. Thank you so much!
doctorjbeer
March 13, 2023Wonderful examples of externalising. Thank you. It’s much clearer now.
I was especially moved to hear about the work being done on Lateral Violence, and the Woorabinda young people’s proposition of Lateral Love. Surely this must be an effective tool to combat the dreadful scourge of youth suicide?
I teach social skills to Primary students through drama, story, and writing, and I’m now thinking about how I can extend that practice to more externalised depictions – e.g. instead of ‘show me an angry person’, ‘show me anger’ – the emphasis being on ‘the thing’.
Very inspiring. Thanks again.
Liz Evans
March 8, 2023Thank you so much for sharing all the experiences and ideas; really humbling to watch, listen and learn how these ideas are working with groups of people with different cultural experiences to me and to get the voices of those having these changing conversations, the shame mat descriptions were so vivid, I really appreciate this..
I am a UK visitor staying with friends in Australia and enjoying the opportunity to access this course; I will take back to my emotional well-being work with young people from many different cultures who have travelled alone to seek safety. We are definitely needing to develop more ways to encourage the systems to respect difference, remain curious, talk in non problem saturated ways and recognise/acknowledge strengths moreso.
So much more to learn, so much history to understand, thank you
tessa.mary82
January 31, 2023This module really built on the concept of externalising conversations from the “What is Narrative Therapy?” course. I find the idea of putting the shame into the Shame Mat very helpful. I think this approach clarified and made the differentiation of shame and the people experiencing it very explicit by making it tangible; that is, the physical act of wiping off the shame on the way in.
I really enjoyed hearing Aunty Dolly Hankin and Aunty Kerry Major’s insights and experience! Their reflections of how older and younger generations could connect their experiences of violence really struck a chord, as I work with a service that attempts to do this through facilitated conversations out bush. Their creativity and use of games to talk about difficult topics was intriguing and the line by Aunty Kerry Major, “our way is about the cup of tea” summed up so much of what I try to embody in my work but also ways that it is restricted by 9-5 hours and service limitations.
littlewing.therapies
January 23, 2023The shame mat is such a wonderful example of externalisation – I felt very moved imagining those women walking into the room with intention, wiping their feet and leaving shame at the door. It was a very inspiring module and reminds me of the creative ways we can engage with our clients and honour their stories.
tina.stasuik
December 10, 2022I love the idea of utilizing externalization in a group setting. It really speaks to building community connection against Problems as well as addressing and acknowledging Problems’ roles within communities. I love that it looks at the allies of the Problem. Sugar, in particular, was a powerful way to see the Problem in the context of a community Problem rather than a personal choice which brings Shame. Powerful!
Jessy
November 2, 2022I really liked the shame mat. It was a visceral example of externalising the problem and is able to be utilised in many settings. I aim to use it in my practice as part of the group deciding their expectations of each other and how they will go about ensuring shame stays at the door. It will also be an opportunity for us to tell the group what they can expect from us as facilitators. We can both write down our expectations of ourselves and each other.
Kelly
September 29, 2022In watching these videos and reading this content I have come across the creator of the ‘Sneaky Poo’. When I was facing the challenges of toilet training my little one (a few years ago now!) a psychologist colleague mentioned this notion of the sneaky poo. I did not look into it any further but I went straight home and talked to my competitive little boy about beating the sneaky poo before it could cause mischief. Toilet training was done in about three days! I now realise it was a form of externalising the problem. :-)
rachel.faulkner
September 5, 2022I enjoyed the module and like the idea of externalising the problem, I think externalising sugar and grief was clever as it allowed an openness for others and wouldn’t trigger shame.
alexmiles94
August 22, 2022Such a great way to create a non judgemental space and be curious about the “problem”
Projecting outwards enables us to peer inwards with a lot more comfort and intrigue.
Nathel Fishlock
August 9, 2022I enjoyed Dr Whites externalization of ADHD .Visualizing the problem is a wonderful idea for any age not just a child.
sarah.wray
May 6, 2022All of this content and the beautiful ideas being shared resonate very strongly with me. As a transpersonal art therapist, I am conscious already of the power of externalisation, however this thread of real-life examples of externalisation in a narrative practice context has blown my mind and expanded my viewpoint of what is possible. I am inspired by the creativity, innovation, problem-solving and resourcefulness shown in these stories. I particularly love the Shame Mat. Such a ‘simple’ idea, yet so intricate and layered. Incorporating the physical action of wiping ones feet and the symbolism of leaving muddy shame at the door was clearly a very powerful and empowering process for the people involved, as they become active participants in their own healing. Thank you so much to all of the contributors and participants involved in these efforts and thank you for sharing your stories and knowledge with us
Joanna
April 14, 2022The externalizing pieces about grief, sugar and lateral violence by Aunty Barbara were such engaging and brilliant examples of how ‘problem’ topics or emotions can be accessed and explored in a safe way. The piece on ‘lateral violence’ was such an effective way to highlight the complexity and impacts of this problem, and also to define this as ‘the problem’ (and not the community/person as being the problem). The development of the Shame Mat was also really interesting to watch and I loved how responsive Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kerry were to the needs of the women they were working with. Also, their acknowledgement of ‘power’ throughout their work.
Pat
March 25, 2022What a wonderful poem. Moved to see the use of the arts in the healing process, storytelling, poetry, painting, props and the like.
lilrosemitchell
March 12, 2022I really enjoyed seeing the variety of ways in which a problem can be externalised, from the humorous role playing of Sugar to the destigmatising Shame Mat. These are really interesting strategies for allowing people to detach and take a different perspective. As someone who has not used Narrative Therapy before, I feel like this is something that I can definitely incorporate into my counselling work immediately. It also nicely compliments ‘Thought Defusion’ techniques in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
doolgunna
February 18, 2022The idea of the shame mat is a good idea and one that could be used by many people. The externalisation of shame is a good idea.
Nathel
May 13, 2022The Shame mat ,who would of thought that touches so many of us.Deep feelings are usually hidden but shame is massive and what a wonderful way to be accepted as an equal and not feel shame because you are you .
Karen Chong
February 8, 2022The Idea for “The Shame Mat “was Awesome, What a great Idea to bring someone out of their shell and make them feel comfortable in their own skin. The poem by Kerry Major was Beautiful.
Vanessa
February 7, 2022Such an inspiring topic. The idea of a “shame mat”, wow so simply but so powerful, what a wonderfully creative response to the reflections of the practitioners to the needs of the group.
The concept of interviewing an externalised problem seems so full of potential. What would it be like to sit with a group of young people and let them interview “racism” or “sexism” for example.
lori
February 2, 2022I found this topic very interesting with externalising an area of concern, and that it changes the dynamic of interaction. I think using this (separating the problem out) in therapy would change the approach of the session, and would also assist with guilt and shame around a problem which are often common emotions that the people I work with acknowledge. I would like to see practice video examples of how this is utilised in therapy. As with Sugar the Shame Mat is another great example of how we can externalise an issue in a group setting and de-stigmatise an area. Such wonderful work.
Wendy Burns
January 25, 2022I love the thinking behind the shame mat and can 100% agree that the concept of shame has broader meaning than it does for non-indigenous people.
It is critical for practitioners to understand the family and communities notion of what is shame.
Without understanding how shame works within a family and community there can be huge barriers in communicating and working with families in keeping their children safe.
Wendy Burns
January 25, 2022Working with young children I find that story telling through culture, dance movements, song lines help to shape them individually to help express what they sometimes can’t say.
Children engage with a range of texts and get meaning from these texts. They share the stories and symbols of their own culture and will re-enact them to help them make meaning of what’s happening for them.
Sand play is also another median that allows the sometimes unspoken narrative that that gets played out in the choosing and placement of symbols in the sand.
Children are very adaptable in finding different forms of externalising their voices.
debbie webster
January 20, 2022I like the approach of separating a person from their problem so that they can see them as separate and there is no stigma attached to that person
Susie L
January 7, 2022Fabulous to see the creative ways t separate the problem from the person/community and to have engaging conversations incorporating story telling.
The rich and yet very simple way of looking at lateral violence makes the information about the way this spreads and breaks down communities and families so accessible and so relatable.
I really enjoyed this unit and had to pause and reflect after each section as there is so much information and understanding to absorb.
Thank you for sharing all this information and for inviting non-Aboriginal practitioners like me to understand and learn from experts..
Sandra Owen
November 16, 2021I totally agree with the problem being the problem opens the door for people to not feel trapped by others or self-blame therefore it allows them to feel distance from the issue.
Clare
November 4, 2021This module was so great, as while I have heard of externalizing problems before, this included so many rich, varied, and creative approaches to doing that! It has really inspired me to re-think all the ways I may be able to separate the problem from the person – and communicate this with clients – in ways the really resonate with them.
alexwalden@live.com.au
October 20, 2021I loved the examples about sugar and grief that Barbara Wingard provided, because I think that its more helpful to try to implement a strategy when you’ve had an example. Its great that there are opportunities to be creative and to adapt therapies to clients. Externalising thoughts from the client and being able to de-personalise things so that a frank and honest conversation can be had is really beneficial and may improve client engagement.
Chantelle M
September 22, 2021I really enjoyed this module. I have learned so much about how Aboriginal culture and how crucial it is to bring histories and injustices through individuals and communities. I especially loved learning about the shame mat. What a powerful and incredible symbolic resource. Aunty’s Barb’s articles on grief especially, really impacted my on a personal level. As a woman who has had a stillborn baby, it really hit home, how even now, you are still encouraged to just move forward, that there is still stigma to talk about your grief. It was quite reflective moment for me and my heart just broke to think of Aunty Barb’s experience and that of others, who never even got to say goodbye to their child. It also reminded me that I still carry my own grief, several years later and how much we do “shelve” our grief, because of how society says we should be. Thank you to the presenters for bringing forth just how important grief and shame are in one’s story and history and how incredibly important it is, for us to bring these into conversation.
Sameen
September 18, 2021The wisdom behind Shame Mat is mind blowing. I am completely awestruck at the the creativity and imagination of Aunty Dolly Hankin and Aunty Kerry Major in Mount Isa. I love the poem and have noted it down by Kerry Major. They both are true inspiration of strength and dignity. Aunty dolly s story touched my heart. Such a beautiful concept to make people understand that SHAME stops them for seeking help.
rosekneild@yahoo.com.au
September 16, 2021I found this module extremely useful. In working with young people and their families who are afflicted with eating disorders, extenalising the problem is always a useful tool. OFten by the time that families reach a treatment space, there has been considerable damage to relationships through conflict about eating/exercising that is driven by the problem (eating disorder) but is often perceived very personally. Externalising the problem and building an alliance between the young person and their family is the way to gain a strong enough momentum to beat the problem.
I particularly found the section on lateral violence useful. I believe that I will find many opportunities to use these ideas therapeutically. I now realise that I have “missed the boat” so many times in the past by failing to address. I feel better prepared to move forward now. thank you so much for your teaching.
Sarah Sturton-Gill
September 14, 2021I loved this opportunity to learn about how to externalise a problem! The ability to be able to share this experience with clients makes me smile as I believe that it is only positive, non-judgemental and gentle. Michael’s ability to share his experiences with humour only reinforced the potential for positive outcomes for clients everywhere. Thank you for sharing this! Sarah
Ashleigh
August 27, 2021This module has reiterated the importance of knowing people and really understanding them rather than focusing on their label or the person as the problem. I also found the shame mat resource very inspiring as I work with students who have been affected heavily by trauma. They will withdraw within themselves and be filled with so much shame about their lives. This is a great way for students to be able to externalise their problems and increase their self-efficacy
Jazmyn
August 27, 2021I really enjoyed listening to these presentations around externalising problems. I particularly was interested in Aunty Dolly and Aunty Kerry’s ideas and creative approaches to externalising shame and the idea of everyone doing it together. I thought that Aunty Kerry’s poem was powerful and beautifully written.
Sophie
August 27, 2021I absolutely loved and connected with the Shame mat and Aunty Kerry Major’s 2010 Poem. It was an idea that was so simple, but really left an ever lasting impression. They harnessed one word to make a change. Leaving shame at the door and actually walk over the mat- helps the group and different identities to really open up and ‘shed their skin’. Something I am wanting to implement and practice in the classroom.
amy.sheridan
August 23, 2021This was a fascinating module;
I especially enjoyed the personification of James’ ADHD. This reframing of the narrative not only illustrated the type of ADHD but it also empowered James as well as normalising his challenge by aligning him with another person who also had ADHD. By distancing James from the diagnosis and helping James to find a way to explain his condition, he was able to find the strengths he has from his own experience.
I also found the Shame Mat tool as very inspiring as this brought the invisible nature of this type of feeling out into the open, so it can be seen for what it is. The group of women can empower each other through this process. Wonderful idea of Aunty Kerry and Aunty Dolly.
The conversation with lateral violence that Aunty Barb has brought to us is genius, as it clearly enables perspective as well as fosters resilience. Asking it ‘what it likes to do’ and such is such a great way of unpacking the effects of this with clients and survivors.
Very enriching module.
amy
August 27, 2021details
Jessica Rodaughan
August 21, 2021This module was incredibly inspiring and gave many practical ideas for working with clients. I really like the ideas around externalising “problems” and especially externalising shame, by creating a safe space where you can leave shame at the door. I hope to work with Aboriginal children and I think these externalising concepts will be incredibly helpful in reducing shame and increasing empowerment. Thank you for sharing this powerful knowledge.
Eugene
August 5, 2021This was a such an interesting topic, and I loved the inclusion of Aunty Barb’s essays on sugar, grief and lateral violence, as examples of how emotions can be externalized. I also loved seeing the similarities between this element of narrative therapy and elements of acceptance and commitment therapy (which encourages externalizing emotions by placing distance between yourself and your thoughts…with strategies such as “my brain is telling me XYZ” or “I’m hooked to the thought of XYZ”). I’m really curious as to how externalizing can be introduced though, without the client thinking that their concerns and anxieties are invalid, or not worth seeing as ‘real’.
Nileeka S
July 27, 2021“The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem” is one of the best thought I learned under this topic. I could learn the process of externalizing problems rather than internalizing and I can apply this within my practice while working with Aboriginal people and their families. As a person I had experience from my childhood that we have seen the person as the problem, and that’s why still discrimination and shames, labelling persons, and stereotypes exist. I really enjoyed Shame Mat’s ideas and it helps me personally as sometimes we are guilty to express ourselves freely, and it is important that to embrace our own identity, but it is important to empower